Web Browser + PSP = Java development?

[TerryMathews]

well, so far SONY has provided homebrew environments for all consoles they released (for PSOne you had the Yaroze and for PS2 you have PS2 Linux) about 2 years into the consoles lifecycle ... let's see what the future brings and never give up hope. just give it some time young padawan! ;-)

If Sony does release a full-fledged web browser for the PSP, there will be a homebrew environment in the form of Java applets.

Moderator correction: PSPimp authored the quote above. The poster mis-edited it by mistake to indicate mrbrown as the quote author. - Gorim

Wishlist for Java support edited out. Thanks for pointing out my mistake, ooPo!

[ooPo]

If I wanted to do java development on a portable device, I'd buy a cellphone.

[snipped because thread was split]

[TerryMathews]

If I wanted to do java development on a portable device, I'd buy a cellphone.

However, I'd appreciate it if you'd stay on topic and not post your personal wishlist in the middle of an ongoing conversation.

So are you one of those people who think that Java is too slow compared to C/C++?

Sorry about going OT, didn't realize I was drifting that far OT considering I quoted the person above me daydreaming about Net-Yaroze for the PSP...

[Guest]

However, I would like to say that java-based development for games is NOT off topic for the PS2. There have been rumours in the past of someone making an official java VM for the PS2 (outside of the OSS kaffe).

My advice is this: is there is anything you want to do on the PSP, start deving for it now on the PS2. It is not likely there PSP will be able to do much the PS2 can't already do. If you start now on the PS2, you can hit the ground running once the capability exists to homebrew on the PSP.

Continued discussion along these lines should move to a PS2 forum. ;)

[ooPo]

TerryMathews:

Strange that you're quick to single me out as a zealot against your apparently favorite language.

You see, the speed of Java doesn't matter much to me. It has its place in the cross-platform world, not raw speed. Use the right tool and all that jazz. I've used it for several projects over the years and its really kinda nice. But, you can't argue that Java isn't slow compared to traditional compiled languages - at least in the practical world. This isn't entirely a bad thing. It just has its priorities elsewhere.

I know, I know... you're ready for a fight. I'll point you to the most recent objective assesment I've read to further make my point:

The biggest problem is that Java is really slow. On a pure cpu / memory / display / communications level, most modern cell phones should be considerably better gaming platforms than a Game Boy Advanced. With Java, on most phones you are left with about the CPU power of an original 4.77 mhz IBM PC, and lousy control over everything.

I spent a fair amount of time looking at java byte code disassembly while optimizing my little rendering engine. This is interesting fun like any other optimization problem, but it alternates with a bleak knowledge that even the most inspired java code is going to be a fraction the performance of pedestrian native C code.

Even compiled to completely native code, Java semantic requirements like range checking on every array access hobble it. One of the phones (Motorola i730) has an option that does some load time compiling to improve performance, which does help a lot, but you have no idea what it is doing, and innocuous code changes can cause the compilable heuristic to fail.

http://www.armadilloaerospace.com/n.x/j ... ews_id=295

[ooPo]

It must be time for bed. I split this topic and moved it to the wrong forum three times, only to move it back here. Ugh. :)

[Guest]

I know, I know... you're ready for a fight. I'll point you to the most recent objective assesment I've read to further make my point:

http://www.armadilloaerospace.com/n.x/j ... ews_id=295

And pay special attention to who the author is of that assessment! ;)

[roto]

Why would Sony supply us with a JavaVM? What reason would they have for putting Sun's cross-platform technology on the PSP? Sony wants only Sony code running on the PSP.

The PSP will never have a "full-fledged" browser, one of the reasons is Java and Flash; two core pieces of software that alot of people rely on. My prediction is that sony will give us a browser with something of a "content based" browsing selection and limited (feature-wise again) access to the rest of the web. They'll be smart to not cut off users' access to the rest of the internet, but they'll also be smart enough to not give us everything we want.

Other than giving us consumers what we REALLY want there is absolutely no reason for Sony to bring a JVM to the PSP, it just won't benefit a portable gaming system...unless Sony decides to turn the PSP into a PDA (God I hope not.)

[Guest]

Why would Sony supply us with a JavaVM? What reason would they have for putting Sun's cross-platform technology on the PSP? Sony wants only Sony code running on the PSP.

There is no reason to think its beyond the realm of possibility for the PSP. Sony is obviously thinking grandly about the potential scope of the PSP.

As Oopo mentioned, cell phones have Java (including Sony ones) *and* they have web browsers.

IMHO the PSP is *way* more suited for Java and browsing than cellphones, yet look how heavy already the cellular industry is standing behind Java on that smaller platform ?

As for Sony only wanting Sony code running on the PSP, that can still be rectified within a JavaVM.

[roto]

Why would Sony supply us with a JavaVM? What reason would they have for putting Sun's cross-platform technology on the PSP? Sony wants only Sony code running on the PSP.

There is no reason to think its beyond the realm of possibility for the PSP. Sony is obviously thinking grandly about the potential scope of the PSP.

As Oopo mentioned, cell phones have Java (including Sony ones) *and* they have web browsers.

IMHO the PSP is *way* more suited for Java and browsing than cellphones, yet look how heavy already the cellular industry is standing behind Java on that smaller platform ?

As for Sony only wanting Sony code running on the PSP, that can still be rectified within a JavaVM.

Yes, cellphones have Java....but if you take a look at J2ME you'll see it's so worthless and sandboxed you'd think JavaScript is your savior. Unless I'm mistaken and haven't been paying attention to Java on cellphones lately...it's not even close to being totally useful mostly due to memory limitations.

But hey I'm not going to fight you on whether we need Java or not...the more features we have the better [chance of Sony messing up somewhere].

[TerryMathews]

Strange that you're quick to single me out as a zealot against your apparently favorite language.

I wasn't trying to single you out, nor is Java my favorite language. That said, it is useful, relatively fast and Sun seems intent on it running on every processor and OS under the sun (no pun intended).

Java isn't as fast as (well coded) C++ or ASM. I know that. That said, well coded Java can be nearly as fast as C++, especially if the JVM implements JIT compilation. Most of the in-demand OSes implement that sort of JVM.

The only thing that really holds Java back from being the premier development environment is a decided lack of 3d and sound acceleration. You can "do" it, but there's no standard, and no portability.

Now that we've dispelled my favorite language myths, let me tackle another post.

Why would Sony supply us with a JavaVM? What reason would they have for putting Sun's cross-platform technology on the PSP? Sony wants only Sony code running on the PSP.

The PSP will never have a "full-fledged" browser, one of the reasons is Java and Flash; two core pieces of software that alot of people rely on. My prediction is that sony will give us a browser with something of a "content based" browsing selection and limited (feature-wise again) access to the rest of the web. They'll be smart to not cut off users' access to the rest of the internet, but they'll also be smart enough to not give us everything we want.

Other than giving us consumers what we REALLY want there is absolutely no reason for Sony to bring a JVM to the PSP, it just won't benefit a portable gaming system...unless Sony decides to turn the PSP into a PDA (God I hope not.)

I disagree. If Sony does implement a true web browser on the PSP, which they claim they want to, they must include Flash and Java. Shockwave, they could probably get away with skipping. The users of the PSP wouldn't take kindly to the red Xs popping up all over their favorite web sites. Or the PSP's browser could suppress the Xs, but then the users would wonder why they were unable to navigate their favorite website.

This all operates under the assumption that Sony is gearing the PSP as a content machine more than simply a gaming platform, and that Sony does want to allow homebrew within reason like they did with the PS1 and PS2.

Is Java a perfect language? Of course not. But it does allow them to give us a homebrew environment that they can control, to a limited degree. Don't want users to read out the data on UMDs? Don't allow the JVM to access the UMD drive. Don't want users to read out the contents of the ROM? Same thing, disable access at the JVM level.

EDIT: And I do want to point out that I am not talking about J2ME, which is being brought up quite a bit. J2ME would be useless, or nearly so, for homebrewing games and emulators. I'm talking about J2RE 1.5. We've gotten off on comparing the PSP to a cell phone, but I think the better comparison would be one of Microsoft's PocketPCs.

[Lee]

I do beleive that Sony would implement Flash into the browser for one main reason. The main Playstation site has a LOT of flash in it, and so do most of the game sites.

[fwaggle]

I do beleive that Sony would implement Flash into the browser for one main reason. The main Playstation site has a LOT of flash in it, and so do most of the game sites.

two things one should be aware of regarding this argument.

1) flash is property unto macromedia. the thought that it "must" be included for a "full fledged browser" is enough to drive the negotiations of getting it through the roof. in my mind (arguably poisoned by w3c thinking) flash compliance is not required for a browser of any sort. flash takes away the accesibility of a website, slows down browsing on older computers, and smart web authors will provide alternatives, which brings me to my next and final point:

2) the playstation.com website works fine without flash. one, that's right one image didn't show up. yowza.

fwaggle

[originalself]

the person here: http://www.dcemu.co.uk/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=26421 has made a beta tetris that runs from the browser in wipeout in JavaScript. I really like it when people put forth more than theory.

[ooPo]

Abolutely... but it isn't really PSP dev so much as javascript now, is it?

[originalself]

Well seeing as how it is formated for size and control on the psp specifically i would say it is. But if your so good why don't you show me somthing you coded for the psp. Oh right you have not made anything. No you would rather knock someone else for actually doing somthing and and piss up ropes all day since runing code is not an option at the moment.

[ooPo]

I direct you to my site at: http://www.oopo.net/consoledev

The PSP stuff is at the bottom.

[pdc]

I direct you to my site at: http://www.oopo.net/consoledev

The PSP stuff is at the bottom.

Bah. That won't get you on Slashdot or Engadget!
Please direct us to your Javascript games ooPo. thx. ^_^

[originalself]

I direct you to my site at: http://www.oopo.net/consoledev

The PSP stuff is at the bottom.

I am sorry i see tools to aid in cracking the system (good) but nothing to actually use on the psp. So how did that compare?

[ooPo]

It addresses your original point - running code is not an option at the moment. Some of us are actually working towards that goal.

While things like this javascript tetris are interesting, they're not really psp development any more than saying you're writing a windows program by creating a webpage that can be viewed by a windows browser.

Yes, even if it does fit the screen nicely.

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad people are at least doing things instead of posting links to other peoples' work to forums and feeling that it is contribution enough to the scene to have the clout to piss on other people.

Sound familiar?

I thought so. Come back when YOU have something more to show than your bad attitude.

[Guest]

I am sorry i see tools to aid in cracking the system (good) but nothing to actually use on the psp. So how did that compare?

Oopo has quite a point just now. Are you up to it ?

Anyone can code a web based tool for a different screen format and characteristic of a non-standard web-browser running on some generic device. The device itself is usually irrelevant, which is the whole idea behind web development in the first place.

As I just said, thats called "web development". Please do not confuse it with "psp development".

[originalself]

Sorry. that makes sense. Now say the website made use of psp specific codes that other browsers don't recognize, such as the mostly unknown comands in use in the wipeout pages. Would that still just be web dev thing and not wanted here?

[ooPo]

Nobody said it wasn't wanted here.

[ChaosKnight]

I don't think anyone here meant to imply that web development is any less of an art than any other type of development, and while it is a challenge to make some great stuff which takes advantage of the web browser, the majority of people here aren't so used to having everything handed to them on a silver platter, as in the web development world.

Most people here that are serious developers are interested in the challenge that cracking something new and interesting presents. It's a game, and sometimes we feel like we discredit ourselves if we give in to "the easy way" or if something is not completely open yet.

That's why there are so few homebrew applications. Even though we say that is what this is for, it's not really. If we were really interested in that sort of thing, then the number of homebrew apps would overwhelm us all. Once a system is cracked the majority of serious developers become disinterested. It's sad, but true.

I'm not really sure where I'm going with this, but maybe it was meant to help some people understand why not much work is being done on the web application development side of things...

[pdc]

Sorry. that makes sense. Now say the website made use of psp specific codes that other browsers don't recognize, such as the mostly unknown comands in use in the wipeout pages. Would that still just be web dev thing and not wanted here?

Now that would be PSP development (although limited), as you are not using standard Javascript but you are using a custom, PSP-Specific language - e.g. PSPscript.

Such a language may support reading from mem stick and various API calls.

...however, this does not exist so PSP development inside the Wipeout browser isn't possible at this time :P

Catering for the PSP != Programming for the PSP.

[PSPGalaxy]

ooPo,

Just finished our first alpha preview of our PSPBrowser.net - photo and video download is available now. It's all based on Microsoft .NET not javascript or java. As far as languages go, if java is needed or javascript or PSPScript or whatever - we just have a goal. As programmers the cool part is there are many ways to reach a goal, guess what I mean is tools.

If I could dig up 10K or so for Sony's PSP SDK I would join up, the future for this device seems very bright, oh well maybe someday...

Hope you check out the work on PSPBrower.net and PSPManager For Windows.