forums.ps2dev.org

Oobles wrote:As with previous years, the sites birthday is a time to reflect on the lack of acknowledgement we receive from Sony. I believe that a flourishing community of developers has the potential to really benefit Sony. It can lower costs for game studios. It can provide a training ground for new developers. And importantly, can be done in a way that is seperate and not involved with software piracy. As has been proven on this site for years, developers here are not interested in breaking methods of protection to copy games. They are interested in writing their own software to enjoy the technology in new and innovative ways.

I strongly disagree that Sony has not acknowledged homebrew development on the PS2. In 2001 they released the PS2 Linux Kit (released worldwide in 2002) creating a supported means of homebrew development. Their development support site www.playstation2-linux.com is still active 3 years later. The site itself is modeled after the www.ps2-pro.com official developer's site. Even in the forums you can find mention of ps2dev from Sony employees. One employee in particular had a links page setup with dozens of links to ps2dev and ps2linux projects.

One problem that created the misconception that ps2dev was never acknowledged was that ps2dev tended to mix too much with "sceners" and chippers than Sony would like. If we could've gotten rid of that stigma, we would've been more appreciated. There was also an air of superiority seperating both ps2dev and ps2linux camps, where ps2dev thought they were better than ps2linux or vice versa. Mind you Sony had nothing to do with these attitudes and they didn't foster them - the communities themselves did.

We know several people who have gone from homebrew to real jobs in the game industry. When I fried the only modchip I've ever had in any of my PS2s, I used the PS2 Linux Kit to get back into homebrew. I'm not saying it's the only reason I have a job, but it certainly helped.

It's ALL ps2dev, both what we call "ps2dev" and the PS2 Linux community! If someone who frequents these forums were to post their technical question on ps2-l.com, it would get answered just the same. There are similiar snippets of code, and (almost) the same techniques being applied to both. I'd be very excited to see both communities get over that hump of thinking we're all that different, and dispell the myth that Sony doesn't care about homebrew development on the PS2.

Oobles wrote:The Playstation Portable is a new platform which will slowly reach millions of users. The interest from developers to write software for this platform is huge. The day of the US release saw an increase of a 1000 new visitors to the site a day, with the number not reducing. I don't doubt that developers on this site will find a way to break protection so that they can execute code. It's simply a matter of time. I do believe that once its done that the methods will likely fall into the hands of people who are interested in breaking protection to copy games.

I don't like this last part. It sounds like a threat. It sounds like, "We're going to crack your system anyway, and we won't be resposible for what happens once we do."

Oobles wrote:There may be a better alternative to the above. I suggest to Sony that they should work with us to develop a method to allow homebrew software to be cryptographically signed and delivered via the web to the PSP. A method that does not break the copy protection mechanisms of the Playstation Portable. This small openning to developers has the potential to increase sales, keep developers happy, and slow down those individuals and companies interested in breaking copy protection for more nefarious reasons. I believe a balance can be found which helps both Sony and the visitors and developers of this site. To this end, I'd be interested in a completely private and confidential discussion to begin between Sony and myself to see if any mutual benefit can be found.

They're possibly working on a homebrew development kit for PSP already. The blasted thing has been out for 4 months, why should we think that they want to sell games on it first? Sony's biggest worry with the PS2 Linux Kit was that someone would use it to start ripping games. No, it didn't end up happening that way, but realize that they are not going to throw away their business model so the few thousand homebrew developers can have their fun. It took a year after the PS2's release for Sony to release the PS2 Linux Kit. How do we know they aren't planning something similiar? They didn't announce the kit on PS2 launch day.

Since we're going to openly acknowledge our willingness to crack the PSP, then we need to be prepared for whatever consequences arise from those actions. If there is a non-mod way to run games ripped from UMD, you can pretty much guarantee that there will be no Sony-sponsored homebrew. This is a good example of what I mentioned in the previous post about our association with sceners and chippers.

As an aside, I'd like to point out that some see the ps2linux kit as an attempt by Sony to control homebrew rather than support it.

That said, I'd jump all over a similar kit for the psp, as I did for the ps2.

ooPo wrote:As an aside, I'd like to point out that some see the ps2linux kit as an attempt by Sony to control homebrew rather than support it.

Excuse me while I go don my tinfoil hat!

Aluminum works better.

As seen on IRC:

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtm ... ID=8093269

(or http://tinyurl.com/6x8o9 if you wish to paste it elsewhere)



Hmmhmm

mrbrown, you raise some points which I agree that I should have acknowledged. ps2linux has done a good job and provided access to things like the Hard drive long before it was made available through other channels. The ps2linux site is also another great source of projects and information regarding homebrew projects on ps2.

I don't believe that there is an air of supuriority between ps2linux and ps2dev. I see the differences as being that no effort was ever made to bring the two environments closer together. Coding for ps2linux has been considered a very different environment in my mind. The only reason I don't visit ps2linux site more often is that it is different. Possibly bridging that gap with a ps2sdk for ps2linux to make them more compatible would bring the two camps/environments together.

I really don't believe that Sony has ever recognised ps2dev. Having run the site for now four years, I have never had any contact from Sony asking me to stop, remove, or change anything about the site. That lack of communication is a conern. I don't know if one day in the future Sony will take me to task based on information held on the site for which I wasn't involved in creating. I assume somone in Sony monitors this site at times and decides if anything could be a thread to their business. Frankly, I don't believe homebrew in anyform could really threaten their business, but it would be nice hearing that from them too.

Finally, back to the post. My point was not to threaten Sony. My point is simply that a lot of people want to run code on the PSP and if they provided a method to allow that, it would both make a lot of people happy and remove the need and interest in breaking any other protection mechanisms. The fact is that people will take the easiest path to accomplish things. If the only path is a difficult one, people will take that too if the result is interesting enough. Put in place a simple path to run code and nobody (around here) will be interested in taking the more difficult path.

I would prefer that ps2dev had absolutely no association with mod-chips. But as we have never had a cheap path to run code on the PS2 without a mod-chip, it has become the cheapest and most simple path. Once again, provide a simple and cheap path and I'll be the first to promote it here.

Oobles.

Oobles wrote:I would prefer that ps2dev had absolutely no association with mod-chips. But as we have never had a cheap path to run code on the PS2 without a mod-chip, it has become the cheapest and most simple path. Once again, provide a simple and cheap path and I'll be the first to promote it here.

Right. If they don't want people producing after-market addons for their product in ways they don't like, then they should produce their own add-on that satisfied the market need in a way that makes them comfortable.

The only "threat" here is the threat of competition that any free market brings.

Oobles wrote:I would prefer that ps2dev had absolutely no association with mod-chips. But as we have never had a cheap path to run code on the PS2 without a mod-chip, it has become the cheapest and most simple path. Once again, provide a simple and cheap path and I'll be the first to promote it here.

You spend all that time talking about ps2linux to brush right over it! The PS2 Linux Kit is the simple cheap path to run code on the PS2! They hand you a boot disc with the same hardware manuals provided to licensed developers. The boot disc is not limited to Linux, it allows you to run any valid ELF from the memory card.

I've provided not one, but two more simple and cheap paths to run code on the PS2. The first one was the reload1 program hosted on playstation2-linux.com. Combined with the PS2 Linux boot disc, it allowed you to boot back into the native kernel and run any ps2dev program, including ps2link.

The second was the PS2 Independence exploit. All it required was a means to get the hack on the memory card, and a PS1 disc. To get the hack on the memory card you could've used a PC->PS2 memory card adapter, a swap trick, a friend already setup for ps2dev, or other methods.

Independence no longer works on the so-called "V12" or slimline PS2s. As non-modchip alternatives for this system there are still the PS2 Linux Kit (sold out of the US but not Europe) and Datel's Action Replay software.

If none of this software existed then I would agree with you that there are no alterntatives to mod chips. While I'm disappointed my contributions can't get much use on newer systems, there is still Datel's product (and probably other competing ones, I don't keep track). I'll grant that before the PS2 Linux Kit came along, there really wasn't a better way to do homebrew without a mod-chip. The swap trick was available, but it's not very feasible (and somewhat destructive).

The point is that there have been and will continue to be a no-mod means for PS2 homebrew development. It was up to us to make the effort to leave the chippers alone.

Oobles wrote:I don't believe that there is an air of supuriority between ps2linux and ps2dev. I see the differences as being that no effort was ever made to bring the two environments closer together. Coding for ps2linux has been considered a very different environment in my mind. The only reason I don't visit ps2linux site more often is that it is different. Possibly bridging that gap with a ps2sdk for ps2linux to make them more compatible would bring the two camps/environments together.

I really don't believe that Sony has ever recognised ps2dev. Having run the site for now four years, I have never had any contact from Sony asking me to stop, remove, or change anything about the site. That lack of communication is a conern. I don't know if one day in the future Sony will take me to task based on information held on the site for which I wasn't involved in creating. I assume somone in Sony monitors this site at times and decides if anything could be a thread to their business. Frankly, I don't believe homebrew in anyform could really threaten their business, but it would be nice hearing that from them too.

I don't think you could be any more wrong on both points. It's like you've forgotten or ignored all that's been going on the last few years. I'll help to refresh your memory:

We have made the effort to bring the two environments close together. I created reload1 with the express purpose to allow people to use the PS2 Linux Kit as a means to run ps2dev tools and software. I also created the unfinished TGE project to go the opposite direction and allow the ps2dev community to experience PS2 Linux (there are a lot of useful resources there, believe it or not). Don't you remember the colorful rant at the bottom of the TGE README? Here's a quote:

The PlayStation 2 Linux community, which is publically endorsed by SCE at
www.playstation2-linux.com, is a thriving group of Linux enthusiasts and
homebrew PS2 software developers. However, there are a few individuals in this
community who view it as a "members only" club. In other words, if you haven't
bought the Linux Kit, then you don't have a right to participate in or benefit
from the community. Furthermore, because Linux cannot even run on the PS2
without the Linux Kit's official boot disc and RTE, there is a very effective
barrier of entry for anyone interested in developing homebrew software for the
PS2.

Although there are many talented individuals working with the Linux Kit, there
are many individuals who have developed exceptional PS2 software without any
official SCE support or development kits. Calling themselves the "ps2dev
community", they too have been guilty of discriminating against the PS2 Linux
community, often shunning or ignoring it.

I've chosen "The Great Experiment" as the name of this project, because like
the African Americans who struggled for and demanded their acceptance into the
United States' civil society, the ps2dev community demands acceptance from both
the PS2 Linux community and SCE as a whole. On the same token, the ps2dev
community must also learn to accept the PS2 Linux community as equals, and
together _the_ community can conquer the PS2, and any other funky systems SCE
tosses at us :).

TGE promises to unify both the ps2dev and PS2 Linux communities, or die trying.

If you don't believe there was or still is an air of superiority from both camps, then you would've needed to spend more time with both groups. I was there, and I was a part of it (on the ps2dev side). It doesn't take much to browse the ps2linux forums or listen in #sps2 for the same type of attitude. The interesting thing is that this attitude rarely, if ever, came from Sony employees. As I've said, Sony employees would mentioned ps2dev projects by name and link to them. They even hosted reload1.

There are several other individuals who don't work at Sony who have taken time to work with both communities. The first person that comes to mind is sparky. Sparky has been the ultimate resource when it comes to figuring out the quirks of the GS or advanced PS2 rendering techniques. He's been partial to both communities, frequenting #ps2dev, #sps2, and posting on the PS2 Linux forums. Sparky was also the first to prove that when it comes to the GS, the PS2 Linux Kit and ps2dev (or native, the TOOL) aren't so different at all. He has in many ways made efforts to bring the two environments together.

On to your second point:

Oobles wrote:I really don't believe that Sony has ever recognised ps2dev. Having run the site for now four years, I have never had any contact from Sony asking me to stop, remove, or change anything about the site. That lack of communication is a conern. I don't know if one day in the future Sony will take me to task based on information held on the site for which I wasn't involved in creating. I assume somone in Sony monitors this site at times and decides if anything could be a thread to their business. Frankly, I don't believe homebrew in anyform could really threaten their business, but it would be nice hearing that from them too.

I want to say this in the best way as to not offend you Oobles: You (or anyone else) are not the sole face and contact of ps2dev. I know that Sony has recognized ps2dev, because I, a member of ps2dev, have talked with them. I've had plenty of contact with Sony. While visiting friends in California in March of 2002 I had an informal lunch with SCEA folks instrumental in the launch of the US PS2 Linux Kit. I asked them specifically about the non-Linux aspects of the Kit. They also relayed their concerns of the Kit turning into an easy way of pirating games.

Before that and well after the Kit's worldwide launch, a friend and I ran #ps2linux on openprojects (now freenode). There were several Sony employees who frequented that channel, and we discussed the state of ps2dev among many other things. I've been extremely vocal and outspoken on the ps2linux forums when discussing ps2dev, and Sony folks

I know it sounds like "I, I, I, did this and that" but I just want folks reading this to know there wasn't a solid brick wall seperating the groups. All of this contact was informal and friendly, there was never an "official" contact person at Sony. There never needed to be because these Sony people were actively involved in the homebrew community, and a few still are.

Which brings me to my last point in this too long post: involvement. For the man who runs the ps2dev website to have completely swept past all of this, to say that no one has tried to bridge both communities, and that Sony doesn't give a flying flip about ps2dev, tells me he wasn't involved enough. PS2dev is not just the news and a wiki-style website. It's a community of developers and enthusiasts gathered for a common purpose: to hack the PS2. We were able to be informal and become friends with Sony because we focused on the code and sharing knowledge amongst ourselves. We didn't care about the politics of "an official response from Sony".

You should count it as a blessing that Sony has never asked you to change or remove anything. That means you're doing something right and you should keep on doing it.

mrbrown wrote:Sony's biggest worry with the PS2 Linux Kit was that someone would use it to start ripping games. No, it didn't end up happening that way, but realize that they are not going to throw away their business model so the few thousand homebrew developers can have their fun.

Except that one or two of those homebrew developers might go on to make a game (or two or ten) which sells millions and makes Sony big bucks in license fees. It's why Sony DOES make things like Yarouse and PS2 Linux... they have also had competitions for those developers as well, looking for those few that make it all worthwhile.

As to how Sony could make PS2 development easier and still be safe - I think the best bet would be to make special CDRWs that could only be ordered from Sony directly. They would be special in that they identified as good PS2 CDs. Also, limit the size to 100 to 200 Megs; plenty large enough for homebrew, way to small for pirating games. They could sell the discs for like $1 to $5 each. I'd go for that.

Ditto for PSP. Maybe they could make a specially signed memstick that was maybe 128M or 256M. Again, too small for anything but homebrew. The idea is for Sony to make something that identifies as valid, but is too small to be of any use for pirates. Make the price low enough so homebrewers can afford it, but high enough that if someone made a way of spreading a game across several discs, it would cost more than buying the game legit.

mrbrown wrote:You should count it as a blessing that Sony has never asked you to change or remove anything. That means you're doing something right and you should keep on doing it.

Well said. This site has always shown a very high degree of professionalism and respect towards commercial developers and their IP. The often-fine line between hackers and crackers, homebrew and piracy, has been very clearly delineated by the 'management' here.

This site and its ethics, and all of the work that the ps2dev members have done together, is something to be proud of.

I'll get to reading/replying to some of those comments later. But just for now, it seems that yesterday was the largest number of hits the site has ever seen. Stats show 13387 visitors, 42996 page views, 133582 hits, and 2.61GB of data just for 6 April. The CNN copy of the article first appearing on reuters pulled in 8000 visitors alone. The article has also been republished by atleast 12 different news agencies so far.

Oobles.

I would say I have to be with Mrbrown and J.F. on this. Rather than repeat what they said so well, I will just add a few more points.

It can be a good thing that Sony is keeping an apparent neutral stance. Aside from it meaning they see no cause for concern, their active involvement can also mean lots of influence that may lead to dictating terms.

A perfect example is the linux kit: Sony took a positive step into supporting homebrew there, and they did a great job of it, but it has been managed on their terms - Sony's boot-disc RTE and whatever you can manage to do within the terms of Sony's license on that RTE. The Linux kit is the official Sony support of homebrew efforts, for all intents and purposes. From their point of view, why would they need to necessarily bother with anything else ?

PS2DEV is a great example of an environment that has apparently shown thus far what can be accomplished without Sony's positive involvement, and also without (yet) evoking visible issues of legal concern as a result.

That so much has been accomplished by PS2DEV, without undue attention needed from Sony, should be considered a huge measure of success.

But going forward into the future, I think we all do agree Sony could help with the fledgling PSPDEV efforts. However, much like PS2Linux, anything Sony does will be on their own terms, I expect. Why not have this community continue going along the path it has been going ? If/when Sony does release something like a kit, everyone can still benefit.

But as always, wherever there is a kit you want to explore beyond, in a reasonably legal fashion, there is always this community.