forums.ps2dev.org

gorim wrote:mcmcguirl,

The CDgenps2 program you
mentioned is definitely not welcome here I think.


Gorim

CDgenps2 makes only iso images, so if it is not welcome here my private is open to tell me why.

There are no hard rules on what is a warez discussion, and what isn't. The fact that Gorim and Pixel disagreed is indication enough that people are divided on the where the definition of a warez thread lies...

The result is we have to consider each thread on its own merits and whether or not it deserves to be locked. This one isn't locked - so it must be ok. For now.

What's not ok is the peanut gallery waiting for the chance to leap into action questioning how THE MAN is PUTTING YOU DOWN. This is not a democracy, and we're not lawyers. We're just trying to avoid being responsible for the advancement of warez while at the same time discussing homebrew development on a closed system. This isn't easy as there's no line drawn where we know we've gone too far. We have to use our gut feeling. You have to abide by it... or go elsewhere.

Mine says mcmcguirl seems to just want to run ps2link and is running into a lack of non-warez documentation. We can help by offering legal alternatives. You, bigboss... you're trouble. Stop trying to rock the boat and either get on topic or get lost.

Hear hear! Although in these days of "IP Frenzy", you practically do have to be a lawyer to get anything done. A lot of the "harmless" stuff we discuss here isn't so harmless to IP lawyers, so we especially have to be careful, as this site isn't even acknowledged by Sony, much less encouraged.

On that note, I have no idea what homebrew will do when the PSP rolls around.

My apologies for getting the wrong idea...I trust pixel and oopo
measured the situation correctly and I didn't. Have a nice day. :)

(I avoided some witty repartee's about open privates along the way)

ooPo wrote:You, bigboss... you're trouble. Stop trying to rock the boat and either get on topic or get lost.

2 years ago(perhaps more) when there was not a tool available to upload code to your ps2, you only could test your own code burning a cd and tryng to load it with ar2, demo swap or similar tool. My first naplink iso and many some code test before was made with cdgenps2 so i believe that i am not tryng rock the boat, my old v3 can tell you it because it's not modified.

Peace

As Marcus says it's difficult speak about something like this because all people here(me too) are using internal syscalls and internal rom modules copyright by Sony Is this right?

You have a history of speaking up only when its to stir up trouble.

All this talk of 'blah blah two years ago' just tells me you should know better.

Shame.

So then, let's go ahead and try to give a general definition "warez", that way people will know where the line is. Here's my definition.

warez - Any material that is under the copyright of a person or company and is liable to a lawsuit if the copyright is infringed or the material is stolen (like code), or duplicated without permission OR revealing methods that would break said copyright.

Nice definition, huh? Feel free to put some input into it, to where we all have a general definition of "warez". That way people who come on this board know where the line is.

Well, the definition of warez differes with each & every person.

Even though PS2DEV does use the syscalls & stuff which is from Sony, I don't consider PS2DEV to be warez. IMO, if someone programs a game using the PS2DEV tools & then tries to sell the game then it is warez because the programmer is trying to sell the game without permission from Sony. If someone programs a game using the PS2DEV tools but releases the game as freeware then it is not warez since no money will be made.

Now, if someone downloads a commerical PS2 game from the Internet so that they won't have to buy the game then the downloader comitted a crime because they are stealing profits from the company who made the game & they are also stealing royality fees from Sony.

The syscalls are located in the PS2 itself, we merely call them. As for stuff... which stuff? Great efforts are made to not directly use code from Sony that isn't legally released. Take a look at ps2lib and things like freesd. Free implementations of Sony's code, unburdened by fees and non-warez. This is what ps2dev.org is for - to provide these tools and information to allow mere mortals who aren't blessed by Sony to develop whatever they want. Legally.

Selling a game you made with this tools falls into a grey area. Does Sony have the right to deny you sales of a game you legally wrote yourself? Maybe. Relatively untested in court, you're welcome to try. However this isn't a warez issue - its a closed system issue.

Regardless, my stand on warez is this: If the user is new and doesn't know what they're doing is wrong, I'll explain what is wrong and try to suggest legal alternatives. If the user is not new and should know better, he/she shouldn't be talking about it. In either case there is no reason for attacks, flames, posturing or whining. Either help the new user find the right path, or shut the hell up. It annoys me to have to split a topic up. :)

ooPo wrote: Either help the new user find the right path, or shut the hell up.

Lol. I guess you pretty much summed up the topic with that sentence right there.

ooPo wrote:The syscalls are located in the PS2 itself, we merely call them. As for stuff... which stuff? Great efforts are made to not directly use code from Sony that isn't legally released. Take a look at ps2lib and things like freesd. Free implementations of Sony's code, unburdened by fees and non-warez. This is what ps2dev.org is for - to provide these tools and information to allow mere mortals who aren't blessed by Sony to develop whatever they want. Legally.

Selling a game you made with this tools falls into a grey area. Does Sony have the right to deny you sales of a game you legally wrote yourself? Maybe. Relatively untested in court, you're welcome to try. However this isn't a warez issue - its a closed system issue.

It's not untested, Accolade or Acclaim went up against Sega for producing their own games for Genesis and won. It was even more grey than what's done on PS2 because Accolade had to duplicate the "Licensed by Sega" copyright string in the Generis ROM in order for their game to boot. The court said it was OK for interoperability. This *was* true for a variety of other hardware and non-computing products since there's been copyright law. Fortunately, we don't have to duplicate any copyright strings to get software to run on the PS2.

The problem today are laws like the DMCA and it's restrictions against circumvention. Because Sony uses some form of encryption/security on game discs, they probably would have a strong case for killing a product that cicumvented that. Duplicating the "copyright string" is more than what Accolade did because it involves a security system.

EugeneE3RD: it doesn't matter if it's free or commercial, they would have just as much recourse to kill it.

With a law like the DMCA and other IP law stuff being thrown around lately the tests of the past don't really mean anything anymore. I'd like to see someone try, though... :)