Or shame on me for expecting more... I'm not sure which is more applicable. I've definately been away from the PSP scene for some time, but I do remember when talking about finding holes in firmware wasn't subject to be locked and filed away in Off-Topic.
But this really opened up a little insight into why I dislike the open community in general. Don't get me wrong I'm an open-source/open-community advocate myself, however what I find disturbing is the common "elitist" threads I find in these communities. Understandably this community doesn't want the forums to become overwhelmed with every kid telling us about "omg_it_works_downgrader.rar" however logical and sensible discussion on that matter (like back in the day...) should be encouraged.
So why do I feel ashamed of this community?
1) Elitist. Very common "oh w00t, we hacked 1.50. if you don't have 1.50 then that's too bad. you should be an early adopter." - This is the very thing we were fighting to get homebrew code running in the first place. (compare "oh w00t, we made the psp, if you don't have $10,000 for a dev kit, then you should get hired somewhere that does.") Where's the fun of just hacking to be hacking? I upgraded from 1.50 to 2.0 (a move many would consider ignorant and some are probibly crying now). Why? Just because. Necessity is the mother of invention. If I get frustrated enough I will be forced to do something about it.
2) Self-Extincting. This is a collection of intelligent people. Heck, the original hacks for the 1.5 firmware, and indeed all the modern PBP packing/unpacking code was developed and posted here. It's cool to work on games and apps but if said programs can only run on an incresingly smaller subset of PSPs, then what's the point? You ban any discussion of the future thus reserving extinction for your hobby.
Now this likely doesn't apply to everyone. Take it with a grain of salt, and remember to flame fast if your going to flame because there's probibly a script around here that auto-locks any post with "downgrader" in it.
If you have something intelligent to say, say it fast.
Otherwise, please take this plea to heart and think about it. At least do that much. If you choose to disregard it, then do so with a clean conscience that you at least thought about it and made the decision.
Shame on you... shame on you all.
Moderator: cheriff
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ChaosKnight
- Posts: 142
- Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 2:08 am
- Location: Florida, USA
As has been stated, talk of exploits has never been productive on these particular boards. They've come from other groups of smart people. They will probably continue to do so. In the meantime we've decided to focus more on development than cracking yet another version. It keeps the wannabe 'Has anyone tried X...?' exploiters and Sony off our back.
Besides, Sony will just keep releasing new versions anyway. Time is better spent on other things and other methods of running code. Some of us are taking this time to figure out the internals to eventually reach this goal. Work smarter, not harder. You'll never win by playing their game.
As well, some of us don't have a 2.0 or even a 1.50 psp. How is it elite to not crack something you don't even own? I'm not going to upgrade just so I can fit into your view of how the scene works. I'm busy doing my own thing. I'm glad you've decided that upgrading to self-annoy yourself into figuring out is the path you'd like to take. I'm not glad it has left you free to stare at your own navel and make vast pronouncements on the state of things after being away so long.
Less drama, more scene. Please.
Besides, Sony will just keep releasing new versions anyway. Time is better spent on other things and other methods of running code. Some of us are taking this time to figure out the internals to eventually reach this goal. Work smarter, not harder. You'll never win by playing their game.
As well, some of us don't have a 2.0 or even a 1.50 psp. How is it elite to not crack something you don't even own? I'm not going to upgrade just so I can fit into your view of how the scene works. I'm busy doing my own thing. I'm glad you've decided that upgrading to self-annoy yourself into figuring out is the path you'd like to take. I'm not glad it has left you free to stare at your own navel and make vast pronouncements on the state of things after being away so long.
Less drama, more scene. Please.
I think the reason for the admins to disallow exploit discussion was that it didn't bring anything productive to the forum, and it brought along a crowd that wasn't welcome(piracy). I find nothing elitist about it, just that they wanted a better focus on what is done here, which is software development for the PSP, not hacking so that the latest game can be run from memorystick.
Exploits as such aren't shunned (hey, there's a kxploit target in pspsdk :)), but rambling on about "I have no clue about anything, but here's my idea for a new exploit..." in a billion threads doesn't bring anything productive, and people who want to discuss exploits are asked to do it on other forums.
We all have our reasons why we're using the PSP, and from my perspective it's a portable platform that's fun to develop for and with a nice graphical punch. I keep developing because I'm writing software for MYSELF, not for anyone else. I just happen to share what it is I do because it benefits the common goal, and because I couldn't be doing this unless a lot of other people shared their progress before me.
Exploits as such aren't shunned (hey, there's a kxploit target in pspsdk :)), but rambling on about "I have no clue about anything, but here's my idea for a new exploit..." in a billion threads doesn't bring anything productive, and people who want to discuss exploits are asked to do it on other forums.
We all have our reasons why we're using the PSP, and from my perspective it's a portable platform that's fun to develop for and with a nice graphical punch. I keep developing because I'm writing software for MYSELF, not for anyone else. I just happen to share what it is I do because it benefits the common goal, and because I couldn't be doing this unless a lot of other people shared their progress before me.
GE Dominator
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Oobles
- Site Admin
- Posts: 347
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- Location: Melbourne, Australia
- Contact:
I think the others have said it enough.. but I couldn't resist a topic with "Shame on you". I find it such ashame that people find the need to say things like this. The ps2dev.org web site has been running for a few years now, and it has always stood apart.
The PS2 and PSP developers on this board that have spent countless hours on developing both the ps2sdk and pspsdk don't do this to have people like you say "shame on you". There are plenty of other so called "hacker" web sites that you can go and join where you can bitch to your hearts content. There are also other platforms that use illegal tools to develop code you could join. Thanks to the very *few* individuals that spent the time to develop the sdk's, you have the tools you need to develop for the platform legally.
The forums here are elite because it takes a lot of knowledge and skills to become a developer for the PS2 or PSP. If a new developer with no clue comes and says, "I want to write games and I don't know how to program", he/she is not going to be hand held. As the others said with the exploit discussion we were getting 95% of "I have no clue.. but wouldn't it be cool to have an exploit". I'd say less than 10 people in the world had any real clue of what was required to create an exploit. I really hope that you are one of those 10 people that can create an exploit for 2.0 PSPs. We will be the first to congratulate you and use your exploit when it is done. I really hope you do get "frustrated enough" to do something about it. Until you do and realise how many hours it takes of real work and not bitching, don't come complaining that others aren't working on it. And trust us, nobody here is crying for your 2.0 upgrade.
As for being self-extincting. This web site is for people who have a hobby. Aslong as I don't upgrade my PSP I can continue enjoying this hobby. The software at the site is *not* for wide adoption of the general public. If you want to make commercial software find a publisher. If people want to enjoy the hobby they can go out and buy a 1.5 second hand. I'm sure there are plenty of people who haven't upgraded their PSP.
And yes the petty shots at us having auto-locks for any post with "downgrader" don't help. The moderators of this forum do a great job keeping discussion on the track of developing. The forums are not for general discussion on PSP, exploits, or greek wedding dancing. We are not interested in helping people downgrade, find ways of running commercial games off memory sticks or a range of other things. There are no scripts, just a small group of great moderators that do a very good job of making this forum a great place to get useful information.
As for having a clean conscience. I hope you do!? Go back and have a read of what you wrote and decide if these are the forums you want to be a part of. There is so much great software, information and tools available at this site. You are telling these people that you are not thankful for their hard work. Shame on you.
David. aka Oobles.
The PS2 and PSP developers on this board that have spent countless hours on developing both the ps2sdk and pspsdk don't do this to have people like you say "shame on you". There are plenty of other so called "hacker" web sites that you can go and join where you can bitch to your hearts content. There are also other platforms that use illegal tools to develop code you could join. Thanks to the very *few* individuals that spent the time to develop the sdk's, you have the tools you need to develop for the platform legally.
The forums here are elite because it takes a lot of knowledge and skills to become a developer for the PS2 or PSP. If a new developer with no clue comes and says, "I want to write games and I don't know how to program", he/she is not going to be hand held. As the others said with the exploit discussion we were getting 95% of "I have no clue.. but wouldn't it be cool to have an exploit". I'd say less than 10 people in the world had any real clue of what was required to create an exploit. I really hope that you are one of those 10 people that can create an exploit for 2.0 PSPs. We will be the first to congratulate you and use your exploit when it is done. I really hope you do get "frustrated enough" to do something about it. Until you do and realise how many hours it takes of real work and not bitching, don't come complaining that others aren't working on it. And trust us, nobody here is crying for your 2.0 upgrade.
As for being self-extincting. This web site is for people who have a hobby. Aslong as I don't upgrade my PSP I can continue enjoying this hobby. The software at the site is *not* for wide adoption of the general public. If you want to make commercial software find a publisher. If people want to enjoy the hobby they can go out and buy a 1.5 second hand. I'm sure there are plenty of people who haven't upgraded their PSP.
And yes the petty shots at us having auto-locks for any post with "downgrader" don't help. The moderators of this forum do a great job keeping discussion on the track of developing. The forums are not for general discussion on PSP, exploits, or greek wedding dancing. We are not interested in helping people downgrade, find ways of running commercial games off memory sticks or a range of other things. There are no scripts, just a small group of great moderators that do a very good job of making this forum a great place to get useful information.
As for having a clean conscience. I hope you do!? Go back and have a read of what you wrote and decide if these are the forums you want to be a part of. There is so much great software, information and tools available at this site. You are telling these people that you are not thankful for their hard work. Shame on you.
David. aka Oobles.
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ChaosKnight
- Posts: 142
- Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 2:08 am
- Location: Florida, USA
First, let me thank all of you for being open and honest about your feelings, that really helps. As for not wanting a bunch of know-nothings, this I can understand. I get just as irritated as the next programmer when I see speculation without any shred of proof or research.
As for this being a hobby, I can also understand that. And I did not mean to insult any admins, mearly point out that there have been at least one thread with some technical information which would have been kept open normally but was locked because the person made the mistake of mentioning it was for a downgrader.
This post for the most part had the purpose of testing the waters to see of this (being a genuine development forum) would be open to the idea of developing some exploitive code for people who are unlucky enough to have purchased a non 1.5 PSP. The jury on that is still out.
As for the "elitist" comments, that's just the general feeling of said unlucky people when they find out they'll get no help here (and may get censored, locked, blocked, (banned?)) and basically just screwed. Don't take it too personally, just understand that image is important, especially for a community.
As for this being a hobby, I can also understand that. And I did not mean to insult any admins, mearly point out that there have been at least one thread with some technical information which would have been kept open normally but was locked because the person made the mistake of mentioning it was for a downgrader.
This post for the most part had the purpose of testing the waters to see of this (being a genuine development forum) would be open to the idea of developing some exploitive code for people who are unlucky enough to have purchased a non 1.5 PSP. The jury on that is still out.
As for the "elitist" comments, that's just the general feeling of said unlucky people when they find out they'll get no help here (and may get censored, locked, blocked, (banned?)) and basically just screwed. Don't take it too personally, just understand that image is important, especially for a community.
w00t
I think the image of ps2dev.org is just right. You come here, you get info on coding on the PS2 or PSP. You don't have to waddle through piles of nonsense, and you get great help with coding very quickly. What else could you want, as a coder?
To keep a site like that running, knowing that Sony doesn't really appreciate homebrew in general at this point in time, takes care. So the decision to not discuss exploits is a very wise one, imho, especially since, as was mentioned above, only very few people are qualified to usefully discuss this anyway. Those people can find each other easily enough.
Considering the nature of other boards, and their number, on PSP info, games, hacks and so on, I think the decision to specialise in development within the constraints of the law cannot be faulted.
If this means that some consumers will find this board elitist - fine. This board is for developers, not consumers. Consumers will find their stuff on pspupdates.com and like sites, and get help there from other consumers, and developers will go there for feedback on their products.
Here, you are among developers. For that audience, the board caters to all levels. It cannot be both elitist in that regard, and offer the Lua section for instance.
To keep a site like that running, knowing that Sony doesn't really appreciate homebrew in general at this point in time, takes care. So the decision to not discuss exploits is a very wise one, imho, especially since, as was mentioned above, only very few people are qualified to usefully discuss this anyway. Those people can find each other easily enough.
Considering the nature of other boards, and their number, on PSP info, games, hacks and so on, I think the decision to specialise in development within the constraints of the law cannot be faulted.
If this means that some consumers will find this board elitist - fine. This board is for developers, not consumers. Consumers will find their stuff on pspupdates.com and like sites, and get help there from other consumers, and developers will go there for feedback on their products.
Here, you are among developers. For that audience, the board caters to all levels. It cannot be both elitist in that regard, and offer the Lua section for instance.
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ChaosKnight
- Posts: 142
- Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 2:08 am
- Location: Florida, USA
And so many fewer now that said knowledge is not disseminated.Arwin wrote:... the decision to not discuss exploits is a very wise one, imho, especially since, as was mentioned above, only very few people are qualified to usefully discuss this anyway.
Still no response to my comment about the sad individuals who were not as lucky to get a 1.50 PSP, which was the root of my issue in the first place. This forum had lots of useful speculation and people actually working hard to figure things out, but now that all your precious 1.50 boxes are unlocked... Well you see what I'm getting at...
What I'd like is for this to be a place where
Even if it's with regard to the inner working of the machine. As for the legality, I do not know of any country where it is illegal to reverse-engineer the inner workings in order to build interoperable software for it. (Not even the great beast itself, the USA. The DMCA allows for interoperability, but not copying.)Arwin wrote:... you get info on coding on the PS2 or PSP. You don't have to waddle through piles of nonsense, and you get great help with coding very quickly.
w00t
However, any action that makes wide forms of abuse possible, is. In these cases, the court will decide in favor of Sony in 10 out of 11 cases. Working on a way to make homebrew available is unfortunately also working on a way to make tools like Fastloader and emuwhatsitcalled available. And that means ... You got it.
I wish it were different, but there it is.
I wish it were different, but there it is.
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ChaosKnight
- Posts: 142
- Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 2:08 am
- Location: Florida, USA
Unfortunately that is true. But fortunately an exploit has turned up (buffer overflow) and has been confirmed by many people. Fortunately due to its technical nature it's a whole lot of fun to code for (assembly). So maybe the ps2dev community can add this to the ways one can load homebrew.
I'll have to look deeper into it when I get home and can test it personally.
::EDIT::
I was able to test this personally and can say that it functions as expected on a US 2.0 PSP.
I'll have to look deeper into it when I get home and can test it personally.
::EDIT::
I was able to test this personally and can say that it functions as expected on a US 2.0 PSP.
w00t
I feel bad for those who weren't 'lucky' enough to get a 1.0 PSP, actually. :)
Anyway, I still say it isn't elitism that has caused the exploit talk to wind down. Instead, those who were loud about it before are now happy with their kxploit. When 2.0 reaches a critical mass then a similar exploit will be found.
Well, has already been found I guess.
The point is that we here at these forums never were a driving force in finding any of the already known exploits. We're just continuing the tradition of development talk instead. The psp toolchain, pspsdk, lua and the rest is just as important as an exploit, perhaps even more so... without them your exploits are not very useful.
You're certainly welcome to start your own place for exploit development, though.
Anyway, I still say it isn't elitism that has caused the exploit talk to wind down. Instead, those who were loud about it before are now happy with their kxploit. When 2.0 reaches a critical mass then a similar exploit will be found.
Well, has already been found I guess.
The point is that we here at these forums never were a driving force in finding any of the already known exploits. We're just continuing the tradition of development talk instead. The psp toolchain, pspsdk, lua and the rest is just as important as an exploit, perhaps even more so... without them your exploits are not very useful.
You're certainly welcome to start your own place for exploit development, though.
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ChaosKnight
- Posts: 142
- Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 2:08 am
- Location: Florida, USA
It's very true that exploits are useless without homebrew. And now that 2.0 people have a method (1.5x people will want to upgrade to take advantage of it) nobody can complain that they bought a PSP and it can't do homebrew.
As for the 1.0 firmware, hasn't a firmware loader been released? Kinda like a bootloader. But I think a bootloader would be a very good idea if it's possible (some programs/the 2.0 firmware itself seem to write to the flash chip...) then you can choose which firmware on say hardboot.
Speculation? Yes. Will I work on it. Seems like a fun diversion from my normal tasks of porting a simple 2D RPG engine to every console I can find. I guess 2D wouldn't be as much fun on a PSP. Guess I'll have to study up on all the cool 3D built in functions the PSP is likely to offer.
As for the 1.0 firmware, hasn't a firmware loader been released? Kinda like a bootloader. But I think a bootloader would be a very good idea if it's possible (some programs/the 2.0 firmware itself seem to write to the flash chip...) then you can choose which firmware on say hardboot.
Speculation? Yes. Will I work on it. Seems like a fun diversion from my normal tasks of porting a simple 2D RPG engine to every console I can find. I guess 2D wouldn't be as much fun on a PSP. Guess I'll have to study up on all the cool 3D built in functions the PSP is likely to offer.
w00t
Hopefully this doesn't become a habit again, but I might as well chime in...
What made PS2DEV special, and set it apart, is that its not about cracking. Its not even so much about running whatever you want on hardware that you buy, whether its getting Linux or even setting up a website run off of your PSP. There are already plenty of sites and people who thrive off those challenges, especially the latter...
No, PS2DEV, in my humble opinion, is about
1. Learning the uttermost details of the hardware.
2. Writing the tools that serve as a base for further development.
3. Usually, but not always, using these tools for purposes intended
by the hardware - graphics and media entertainment development.
4. Doing it legally as much as possible.
As such, PS2DEV folx are typically not going to focus on cracking into
the hardware, unless there is already not a way in. Yes you noticed that
after firmware 1.0 people here didn't walk to talk about cracking it
anymore. Of course! Cracking is not where anyone wanted to spend their
time, once in, they went off into development! Don't have time to crack or wait for one for 2.0 ? Buy a 1.0!
Especially since so many other sites are devoted to those things, and
other topics that are usually strongly frowned about here, why should
a site duplicate energy and resources when:
a. Its not related to the core purpose of the site.
b. So many others are already doing it ?
Fortunately for you, a 2.0 hack is now here. But when the next one comes
along, if you feel strongly and have energy to spend on the next crack,
by all means support the other sites in that effort.
But when you feel strongly and have energy about tools development
and deep hardware topics, and its all legal above-board, I would imagine
you would want to go to a site that focuses on that to the utmost.
Who ya gonna call ?
What made PS2DEV special, and set it apart, is that its not about cracking. Its not even so much about running whatever you want on hardware that you buy, whether its getting Linux or even setting up a website run off of your PSP. There are already plenty of sites and people who thrive off those challenges, especially the latter...
No, PS2DEV, in my humble opinion, is about
1. Learning the uttermost details of the hardware.
2. Writing the tools that serve as a base for further development.
3. Usually, but not always, using these tools for purposes intended
by the hardware - graphics and media entertainment development.
4. Doing it legally as much as possible.
As such, PS2DEV folx are typically not going to focus on cracking into
the hardware, unless there is already not a way in. Yes you noticed that
after firmware 1.0 people here didn't walk to talk about cracking it
anymore. Of course! Cracking is not where anyone wanted to spend their
time, once in, they went off into development! Don't have time to crack or wait for one for 2.0 ? Buy a 1.0!
Especially since so many other sites are devoted to those things, and
other topics that are usually strongly frowned about here, why should
a site duplicate energy and resources when:
a. Its not related to the core purpose of the site.
b. So many others are already doing it ?
Fortunately for you, a 2.0 hack is now here. But when the next one comes
along, if you feel strongly and have energy to spend on the next crack,
by all means support the other sites in that effort.
But when you feel strongly and have energy about tools development
and deep hardware topics, and its all legal above-board, I would imagine
you would want to go to a site that focuses on that to the utmost.
Who ya gonna call ?